Dale Arnold: In just a couple of minutes we'll connect up with Mark Shapiro, the general manager of the Cleveland Indians—has been since 2001—and Scott Pioli, the vice president of player personnel for the New England Patriots. Both good friends, both have done really good jobs at their respective positions with their respective teams. Shapiro with a, what did you say, 62 million, something like that, dollar payroll?
Michael Holley: Sixty-one.
DA: Has got his team fighting for an American League championship beginning tonight at Fenway Park. And Pioli, as we all know, one of the architects of a three-time Super Bowl championship team down at Gillette. Probably, in some regards, I don't think gets as much credit as he deserves for much of that.
MH: I don't think he does, either.
DA: I mean, it always is Bill Belichick who put the team together, and…
MH: Yeah, you think about it and just common sense will tell you that he has a huge role in who the Patriots are today. If you're going to give Bill Belichick credit for going through all the resources and looking at all the information to get his team prepared on a week-to-week basis, you also can't give him credit for going to State College, PA, and, of course, Columbus, Ohio, and Los Angeles for the college players out there, to scout them all out in person. You can't do it! If he's focusing on the gameplan he can't be focused on college at the same. So that's where Pioli comes in.
DA: Pioli and a very, very good amateur scouting staff, obviously, who are out beating the bushes all fall long.
MH: Amateur and pro.
DA: Yeah. But I'm thinking more about the draft end of it.
MH: Right.
DA: You know, guys who are out there beating the bushes and scouting players when you know that Bill Belichick and his professional staff are just a little tied up. They don't have time to have Scott come by and say 'Hey, come take a look at this tackle I was looking at at Mississippi State last week.'
MH: Well, I mean they do, but those are the guys…I mean, Pioli and his department, they're the ones out there seeing these guys in person. Not that they say 'Oh, let's keep Belichick out of the loop. We do scouting, he does coaching, and those worlds don't intersect.' He knows about some of the players that they're looking at and some of the players that they're scouting, but they're the ones identifying the players in the first place.
DA: Well, it's such a unique relationship, too, when you consider you have two guys who, as Shapiro said in the paper today, we're talking about team-building when the most arduous decision they had to make was what sized paper to load into the Xerox machine, which gives you an idea of where they were in the pecking order when they began their careers. I think that's the interesting part, that these two guys, in different sports, have taken those abilities and moved on with them and really risen to the very tops of their professions.
MH: Well, team-building is very important when it comes to the copy machine.
DA: Is it? Yeah. [Laughter]
MH: You've got to have a certain guy who's going to load the 11x17 paper, then you have somebody who's in charge of the 8x11, and somebody who's going to push the button. Your quarterback pushes that button.
DA: While we get Mark Shapiro on the other line, right now let's bring in the vice president of player personnel for the New England Patriots, Scott Pioli. Hello, Scott!
Scott Pioli: Guys, how are you doing today?
MH: Doing great. How are you?
SP: You know what? I was letter-size, Mark was legal-size.
[Laughter]
MH: Well, who pushed the button? That's the question.
SP: You know, I'm a state school guy, so I always went with the letter size. Mark, being a Princeton guy, he wanted to see more important things. He said 'Scott, I'm going legal-size here on you.'
[Laughter]
DA: Back in those days that he kind of joked about when you were trying to decide what sized paper to load in…
SP: [Laughter]
DA: …did you think this is where you guys would end up?
SP: I don't think either one of us knew. I think we hoped about things, but we certainly…I don't think either one of us… You know, at that stage in your life you're so busy just taking care of tasks and doing your job and trying to learn, I don't think either one of us was spending a whole lot of time dreaming about where we would be some day.
MH: So let me ask you this: which…
SP: Wait a second, this is after 11:35 [a.m.], right? I want to be on record here…
[Everyone speaking at once]
DA: You're on-time.
MH: I was just going to ask you. That was my next question: which one of the two is more punctual historically? [Laughter]
SP: This is so typical of him. It's like when we go out to dinner, I'm always waiting on him. I mean, it's unbelievable. [Laughter]
DA: You'd think he had like a game that mattered tonight, or something.
SP: Actually, the funny part is it's usually the opposite: I'm usually the one that's late when he and I have some sort of appointment or something, so this is good. This is good because this is the one that's on the record. So this one's his fault. [Laughter]
MH: I mean, he is out there in front of all of New England late! He's known about this for a couple of days. I mean, you have a busy schedule, too. Right?
SP: Yeah, it's like he has a game or something tonight. He's unbelievable.
DA: Now, will you be at the game tonight?
SP: Yes I will. Yes, I will.
DA: You know I'm going to ask you: who are you going to root for?
SP: [Laughter] I'm going up early because—actually, I don't think people realize that I'm good friends with Tito [Francona], as well. I met Tito back when he was with the Indians organization a couple years ago. Mark introduced he and I. And I don't know, honestly this is…I don't cheer for teams, I'm more concerned about the relationships with people. Both Mark and Tito are really close friends. What I told the two of them was 'Hey listen, I'm cheering for whoever gets me a better seat in the house tonight. So Tito opened up with one box seat, and I said 'Well, I may bring my wife, too.' And then he came across with two, and then Mark said he'd put me sitting right next to him. So I told Tito if he gets me in the dugout then I'm a Red Sox guy tonight.
[Laughter]
SP: So right now, [laughing] Tito bumped it up by throwing in a parking spot with his boy Paulie out in the parking lot. So I'm just waiting for all the goods to come in. By the time I get there tonight I'll know who I'm cheering for.
DA: Well, let's find out. Joining us on the other line, the general manager of the Cleveland Indians, Mark Shapiro. Can you top that offer, Mark?
Mark Shapiro: [Laughter]
SP: Mark, Tito came up with parking, Mark. You're in trouble.
MS: I have dirt on Scott that goes back 15 years, so I shouldn't have to top that.
[Laughter]
MH: Mark, what we're trying to figure out is why were you late? I mean, Scott was calling you out. He said he's here, he shows up on time. What do you have going on besides the game tonight?
MS: You media guys, you must have drinking the night he gave out the cell phone number. He missed a digit by one.
Hosts: Awwwww!
DA: See, now that's an executive: throw an underling under the bus.
SP: [Laughter]
MH: You know what, Mark? That's not the Patriot way. [Laughter] You know what? We don't do it that way with the Patriots.
DA: Mark, we were talking with Scott about a little baseball game you've got going tonight. Back in those days when you and Scott were deciding what sized paper to load in the Xerox, is this what you ultimately thought you'd get to, your team playing for an American League championship?
MS: I think we talked a lot about building teams and systems and what our beliefs were, and no one was listening but each other at that point.
SP: [Laughter]
MS: You visualize doing it…I think neither one of us kind of put things ahead of it, put our personal ambitions ahead, but I think what we ultimately both knew, and what Scott's provided me with inspiration for, is that winning championships is great, and there are a lot of ways to do that, but winning them with people you believe in, both as people and as players, that's what it's all about, that's the ultimate fulfillment. Again, Scott's given me tangible evidence of that to work off of for a long time here and hopefully he can take some satisfaction knowing we've got one championship in the bag and we've got two more to get this year.
MH: Now Scott, how long have you guys known each other?
SP: I'd call it 15 years. When I first got to Cleveland it was 1992; a mutual friend introduced Mark and I. I'm a big baseball fan and Mark's a big football fan and we kind of hit it off. Mark played college football and we hit it off when we first met. It's interesting because I think we both have respect for the business that the other does and from that it became more of a…it started off professional and became much more personal, and over time it's…yeah, it's been about 15 years now, Mark. Right?
MS: That's what it's been, yeah. It's a friendship first, but in these lines of work there are a lot of people that know what we do, there are a lot of people that can follow what we do with the results in the paper, but there are few people who know what we feel. Scott and I know that feeling in the heart, that feeling in the gut. We know the good and the bad and all the things that come with it. And we can talk to each other. Like even our families can't, for that matter. So it's a friendship that wouldn't need the context of our jobs, but is only enriched further by being able to share our jobs, as well.
SP: I go back, Mark, to the time also when you had to make all the changes in that organization and you had to strip down the roster—there were trades made and you had to strip down the roster. Mark had a vision, and Mark and I talked about the vision. It was things that we talked about back in 1992, things that we believed in and beliefs that we had had that were enhanced. I remember the conversations with Mark and Mark just saying 'I just hope that they give me time. They need to be patient, they need to understand. I know what I'm doing.' What's happened now, those beliefs, they've manifested themselves into this pretty special team that they've got right now.
MH: Scott, I remember you saying one time that since you're a state school guy you'd phrase it one way and Mark, the Princeton guy, would phrase it a different way, but you guys were actually having the same conversation.
SP: Absolutely. Absolutely, because at the core…again, it's a very interesting dynamic in our relationship. Some of Mark's background and some of my background, we have similar…we share core values and core beliefs about life, about people, about family. It's interesting, when we come from different backgrounds yet we believe many of the same things and we just articulate things differently sometimes. It's an interesting dynamic of the relationship.
DA: When I'm at Patriots games, long before the game starts I see Scott wandering around the field. The other night in New York, the camera would show several cut-aways, Mark, of you sitting there. Is there a certain helpless feeling you guys get? I mean, you can't do anything. The team is there, you can't go make a trade to help out. Is there a certain 'God, I wish I could do more right now to help this game'?
MS: Well, for me the hardest three to four hours of my day, the 162 times we play, and then you can exponentially take that to another level during the playoffs, so you're right, you work so hard, you have so much invested—blood, sweat and hours of your life—into what happens, and then it just unfolds on the field. Believe me, I've tried to talk myself into…I've used our sports psychologist to try to talk myself into, 'Hey, keep my mind in the moment, don't think ahead, don't think of the past,' and none of that stuff works. My stomach's pretty much in knots from the time the game starts. And I don't relax when we're winning until that absolute final out is retired.
SP: I think we share the anxiety during the game; however, I think both Mark and I both feel the same way, that it's not…I wouldn't call it so much helplessness because we're involved in the decision-making process and so much a part of the process that has brought us to that game and that moment where I think we're so comfortable with what we've done. And we both have an understanding: 'OK, we've done what we can do and the people there that are empowered to make the decisions and also either call the plays or make the plays, that I'm not sure if characterizing it as helplessness is…because I think Mark…well, I know Mark has confidence in the people that are in place in his organization—the players and the coaches and the manager—and similarly here where I know that the people, once that game starts, there's a feeling of confidence that no one has a better chance than us.
MS: I think that's right. The only thing I feel, the only anxiety—it's not helplessness—comes from having so much invested in wanting good things so badly for so many people that do have so much invested and believe so strongly in what we've done. The odds were so strongly stacked against us that so many people had to take some strong faith in our plan and in our vision and buy into a lot of things that nobody else believed, frankly, and just met with blank stares from other people. So those people, their trust, their work, I want them all to be rewarded for all that. And that's the only anxiety I really feel.
SP: Right. And Mark, that's like the conversations we were having prior to the [Travis] Hafner signing and some of the individual players that you talked about, that you were hoping were going to believe in the program and believe so much that they would be willing to stay in Cleveland and believe in the overall team environment, which is the same situation that we've had here because we've had players [where] there's the potential for them to do something differently somewhere else. I remember all those conversations. How many players did you extend this year, Mark?
MS: Hafner and [Jake] Westbrook.
SP: Right. You're right. So you have a lot invested in those people and hoping they're going to believe in what you're building.
MH: I want to take everybody back to February 2002. Patriots upset the Rams. Great day! Pioli is walking back to the hotel with his wife, Dallas, and he gets a phone call from a Mark Shapiro.
SP: [Laughter]
MH: Your collar stays!
SP: Actually, that was on the field.
MH: On the field…your collars are sticking up! What's wrong with you? Get some collar stays!
MS: [Laughing] I said 'Two words for you, Scott: collar stays.'
[Laughter]
MH: So Scott, did you return the favor at any time during the Yankees series? Did you call or text Mark with any kind of message?
MS: He told me to put the pizza down.
[Laughter]
SP: No, I haven't been able to do that. Mark, he dresses impeccably so I can't get on him about that. The only text I've sent him during the playoffs … which was during the game against the Yankees with all the bugs, which again, the brilliance of the Indians organization, they've trained for that one. And those from the Red Sox organization who've actually spent time down in Winter Haven certainly understand what the bugs are like down there. The Indians did that intentionally just so they could be prepared for a game like this.
MS: And I actually slipped that we had Johnny Goryl, Scott, and a group of other people watching together down instructionally in Winter Haven, and they sent me some text message like 'City slickers can't take it,' or something like that.
SP: [Laughter]
MS: And I said, 'That's why we train in Winter Haven.'
[Laughter]
MS: And they said 'Best comeback of the year.' So I stole it from you, and [it] provided me with a laugh, as well, in a game where there weren't many anxiety-free moments.
DA: There comes a time when you have to make a move in your respective jobs that probably isn't going to sell well with your fanbase. Theo [Epstein] talked about what he felt like when he traded Nomar Garciaparra away. I don't know if the Roberto Alomar deal for you, Mark, was like that, or the releasing of Lawyer Milloy for you, Scott. Do you guys ever get together and say 'Man, what's it going to be like when I do this? What do I say when I do something that's not going to sit well?'
MS: I have a laundry list of those decisions [laughing], I think. That's the reality of our market. Theo has a couple; I've got quite a few. You know, Scott and I don't talk about those as much. I think we both know that tough decisions are part of the job. We do talk about the importance of communication, the importance of explaining our plan, internally and externally, on a frequent, consistent basis, understanding not to let the emotions, not to let some of the external opinions, interrupt the plan. That ultimately we're trying to do everything we do for the fans, so that in the end they'll be happy. And the most important thing is not to worry about that praise, that approval, along the way—just want it right in the end, not along the way.
SP: Right. And making those decisions, understanding that they're tough emotionally for everybody involved, and like Mark said, making sure that the communication…the most important line of communication during times like that, when you make decisions like that, is between the organization and the individual player. And those are things that Mark and I have talked about. You know, just making sure that you're as honest with the player as you can be. No one ever likes it; no one enjoys it. I mean, the player not only is uncomfortable with it, and sometimes get upset, but it's the reality of sports today that sometimes you have to make decisions that we don't necessarily feel good about as human beings, but they have to be made because they're in the best interest of the organization. Because like Mark says, there are a lot of people that are invested in the club and the club's fortunes and the club's future, whether it's ownership, it's the other players—there are a lot of people who's jobs depend on us making good, solid, sound decisions.
MH: Scott, after you guys won that first Super Bowl Mark asked you to talk to his team—I think it was during Spring Training. What was that like for you, Scott? And Mark, what was Pioli's message to the team?
SP: Mark, I'll let you answer that first. I got very emotional. That's what I remember.
MS: It was my first year as GM. The most important thing he said, and something that is at the core of everything we've done here today, you know, he asked the guys in that room, 'How many of you have played in an All-Star game?' And a bunch of guys—this is coaches and players at a full Major League spring training, so it's a bunch of guys, probably 75 people in the room. Then he said, 'How many of you have also won a World Series? Played in an All-Star game and won a World Series?' And I think Eddie Murray was the only guy that had done both. And he said 'Which was a better accomplishment?' Eddie said, 'Hands down, the World Series victory was better than anything individual.' And that was kind of the theme going forward. That was the year after the Patriots were announced as a team, which gave me goosebumps, instead of individually. And that's the core—hey, if the Cleveland Indians are where we are today not because of any individual effort, where we are today because we play as a team, because these guys respect each other as teammates, they know what that word means, because we don't depend on any one guy any given day to carry us. We have different guys stepping forward each night. They pick each other up, they believe in each other, and we battle, we fight. They don't give in to bugs, they don't give in to snow-outs. You know, we had four games snowed-out at the start of the year, played a home series in Milwaukee, had to makeup those games and play one on the road, and 43 days in a row, and all those things, and our guys never gave in. And that's at the core of everything the Patriots are all about. That toughness and that team approach. And that was the core of Scott's message that day.
MH: Scott, you said you were emotional. Why?
SP: Yeah, because it was the first time that I had worn the ring outside of the ceremony. It was an emotional time because it was a time of reflection. Mark, if you remember, I had the video as well.
MS: Yes.
SP: And when the video ended, it was the first time that I had looked at or reflected upon at all what had happened. Part of the intensity of the moment, and the emotion of the moment, was how riveted the players were. The players in the locker room just really had a look on their faces, and in trying to explain to them, just seeing there was genuine passion and a desire in their eyes, as well. Because they wanted to hear the message and they wanted to understand it. It was just a confluence of emotion. It was pretty powerful at the time. It really was.
DA: Final question before we let you guys go. I'm always curious about the relationship between the general manager, or vice president of player personnel, and the coach or the manager. How essential it is that that be almost seamless. Scott, I know Bill has talked in the past about you guys almost thinking as one. Mark, do you and Eric [Wedge] have that yet?
MS: You know, Eric and I really do. I've called it from day one as more of a partnership. I just think we have to both be vested in what we're doing. I would say there's differences in football and baseball—very different in the head coach's and the manager's role in the day-to-day running of the organization. It's because the organization in baseball is so much different than in football because of the farm system, international and Latin American operations. But Eric Wedge is one of the few managers in all of baseball who has taken the time to understand the business, understand the big picture. He's vested in what we do. I view him as a partner, he is someone I respect immensely and is a friend. We're elbow-to-elbow in this thing and I wouldn't want it any other way. So, not identical, as I'm aware of Scott's relationship as well with Bill, but ours is atypical in baseball. I think, and I don't want to go on too long here, but I think one thing that, again, I think is something I've gotten that differentiates the Patriots, and really Scott and Bill, is we're in professional sports and egos are pervasive, and credit-seeking. One thing has enabled the Patriots—one of many that's been able to sustain a championship level of play—is that there is no competing egos and there is no desire for credit. And that is extremely rare, guys. You can't imagine how rare that is. There's no wasted energy there. Eric and I share that same thing. Neither one of us spends any energy on worrying about who's getting credit for anything.
SP: And Mark, that's where I would say the relationships of the leadership group, as we call it, are very important. There is a genuine partnership here at the Patriots, just like there is at the Indians, and when you put in that added element of personal trust within the workplace—which Mark, I know, has with Wedge, and I have with Bill—when it's a genuine and true partnership that has the additional personal element, you're working forward toward the same thing. And like Mark said, you're not looking for credit, you're not asking for credit, you're just focused on the same thing, and that's winning championships.
MH: I know Dale said it was the final question, but OK, one more question. One more. [Laughter] Look, if this were Hollywood it would be like best friends who both have Oscars. Both of you guys have been honored, recognized, as Executives of the Year. What does that mean to each of you?
MS: To me it's the most mistitled award ever given.
SP: [Laughter] We've talked about this, too.
MS: It takes, especially in our market and with the way the collective bargaining agreement works in baseball, it takes a collective effort for us to achieve anything, which then brings the notoriety to me, that I get the awards. So I look at it as if the area scout in the Pacific Northwest, to the pitching coach in the Dominican Republic, to our trainer and our strength coach, it just takes a collective effort. We can't afford any weak links at all to overcome the gaps that we have to overcome. And the systems and the buy-in and all the collective effort, that's what's gotten us to where we are. I try to take that award and say 'This is a recognition for our organization.' That's the way I look at it and I think that's the way Scott feels, as well.
SP: Yes, we've talked about that because I kiddingly called Mark when he got that award last year. I said, 'Oh, the Executive of the Year! Here we go.' [Laughter] Because we feel the same way about it. We just happen to be in a position where people see where we are, but we know that the people working…you'll never hear Mark and I say 'the people that work for us' or 'under us.' It's 'the people that work with us.' It's the scouts, it's the area scouts, it's the college director, it's the pro director, and, again, it even includes the assistant coaches. It's a collective effort of a number of people, and things like that are, I mean, I'm sure we both appreciate it but it's not what we focus on and it's not anything that really…the most satisfying thing in our business is winning championships, whether it's a division championship, or a conference championship, and then ultimately a world championship. That's what we're focused on here, and I know that's what Mark is, too.
MH: Hey Mark, listen to this answer from Scott: Hey Scott, who do you want to win between the Red Sox and Indians? Who's going to win?
MS: I know he can't say on the radio…
[Laughter]
MS: I don't need to hear it.
[Everyone speaking at once]
SP: Mark, if you would come up with that parking pass…
DA: I will say this, Mark: based on the latest offer from Tito Francona, you might have to deliver a bag of cash to Gillette Stadium this afternoon.
SP: Or a bag of peanuts.
[Laughter]
DA: One or the other.
MS: Like I said, I've got 15-year-old dirt on Pioli…
[Laughter]
MS: …I don't need to deliver any goods, I'll just use that leverage.
[Laughter]
DA: Mark Shapiro, the general manager of the Cleveland Indians. Scott Pioli, vice president of player personnel for the New England Patriots. Guys, thank you both very, very much.
SP: Dale, Michael, thanks guys. Appreciate it.
{{{ Full audio available in WEEI's Audio Vault }}} |
